Curse

shru · Apr 05, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

And I have no idea why you think fixing expertise would get rid of RaO in the first place???

Obviously, you have not actualy read through this thread, so I'm going to leave you to your own musing in your little world back there. If you have something constructive to add, please feel free to post again, but as it is, your misinterpretations of nearly every post here have led me to believe you don't have a very strong mastery of the English language. Try to prove me wrong, kay?

Pyro maniac · Apr 05, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Shru has got a point on the thumpers, however there is still the R/D and R/P's (latter one is actually less important, spear damage is just too huge).
But shru: Why should we NOT nerf expertise for secondaries, if you think thumpers are great it still allows thumpers to be played. (fixing RaO should be another thread then). At the same time it fixes the R/D's and the other crap that still has to be introduced.

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

If this thread is in glad forum, I would read it carefully.

You're trying to defend expertise by saying that RaO won't be effected by making expertise work on ranger skills only. And that is not the point. RaO is a stupid skill to start with, and god knows what other e-skills a thumper would pack in his bar as the meta changes.

And a full 5e Crushing Blow would make a difference.

Kyrein · Apr 05, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

tyla, how is "c space button mashing" different from any other warrior?

please enlighten me

~ Dan ~ · Apr 05, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrein

tyla, how is "c space button mashing" different from any other warrior?

please enlighten me

And which warriors are you referring to there? The RA scrubs?

Would be easier to answer the question if you specified what kind of warriors. However, if you think that a standard shock axe bar in a top level GvG can be used effectively by "c-space button-mashing".. then, well - you need help.

Kyrein · Apr 05, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

proposing to nerf d-slashers?thumpers? basically all they do is charge adrenaline and mash their attack buttons

Trylo · Apr 05, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitisoda

Bow attacks fail? Anet had to shutdown Ranger Turrets.

Cripshot stops ANYTHING coming at you.

There are about 4 stances used ALOT in expertise, not to mention throw dirt, and the half range shots can deal out alot of damage.

Really, pressing the same skills is boring? O hai sins, u must be encredibly bord MIRITE?

R/A can go on FOREVER. I've seen DB/MB last a frick load of time, especially with zealous daggers.

Escape is good because its an IS, and it can protect you from melees, and the fact that rangers have 100 armor against elements makes it so mesmers and necros are mostly the only way to take them down.

sorry i didnt go into detail, i meant that bow attacks as damage generally do not work out without having glass arrows etc., and even then they are easily shut down by spirit bond (they have to be one of the easier spikes to see coming IMO as a monk). either way, paragons are better at dealing ranged damage while still being able to apply similar conditions, while also having party support and an IAS.

cripshot is good, where did you get the idea it wasnt?

4 stances used A LOT? really? the only one i ever see being used is [skill]natural stride[/skill] and its not even in expertise... throw dirt is just... not a good skill IMHO. it will last around 1/3 of the time on a 10 expertise bar. not only do you have to seek out a melee to use it on, you have to run up to them and cast it on them. or you could be a failure and use it when they reach you, however i enjoy stopping damage to my monk. proactive, not reactive. this skill is only viable as reactive, and being reactive < proactive.

i get insanely bored playing a sin. i think most good players do. and sins can use the MB/DB "trick" forever too... i dont see your point? at least sins get twisting fangs

escape is good because it gives a speed boost? rangers have at least 7 other skills that do that too, but arent elite. once again, [skill]natural stride[/skill] just seems so much better i dont understand why people want to take escape over it.

personally i think it comes down to the fact that rangers are the only class with inherent elemental armor, and having them be able to dodge melee just makes them the hardest class to take down. escape, however, is not the leading factor behind this. i bet that a natural stride with a free elite and rit healing would do better than the current meta.

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

escape is good because it gives a speed boost? rangers have at least 7 other skills that do that too, but arent elite. once again, [skill]natural stride[/skill] just seems so much better i dont understand why people want to take escape over it.

Put NS in expertise and you'll see lulz.

Master Ketsu · Apr 06, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

R/A can go on FOREVER. I've seen DB/MB last a frick load of time, especially with zealous daggers.

R/A will go on forever. It costs 2 to use the skill, they gain 2 back from zealous. Actually, they end up gaining energy since they have 2 energy pips on top of it. I made a fun R/A build that actually was good but is no longer viable due to the OX nerf where I used -5 energy +15 daggers and full vitae. My max energy was 20, and it never dropped below 13 no matter what I did. Try the same thing with critical eye and 14 Critical strikes and you will still eventually run dry. Fun thing about R/A was that you could die, get ressed, and immediately start going at it again.

Quote:

R/D - any of the other numerous melee shutdowns you should have. i mean escape doesnt even give an IAS, uses their elite, and only helps their own dodge chance. i just dont understand how it has gotten as far as it has, it really doesnt seem like a good build. why even go ranger primary... at least you get wounding strike as a derv

Pious and rend touch is what makes the build viable. Both of those skills are very good...but due to the self enchant removal they end up being better on a ranger primary. It works because neither of those skills require an enchantment to be removed. That, and escape rangers are both annoying to kill and hard to kite ( actually, stupid to kite since you give them extra crit % )

....But none of it is overpowered. Stop QQ'ing.

Kashrlyyk · Apr 06, 2008, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

Can eles spend their energy on non ele skills ? Does a warriors strength attribute apply to non warrior weapons ? Can a necro use energy gained from soul reaping for non necro skills ? Can a sin use critical strikes with weapons other than daggers ?...

The question is: How much would they benefit from being able to do that, compared to the benefit Expertise grants?
How many secondary class spells are actually used/viable on Elementalists, Necros?

Yuhe Ji · Apr 06, 2008, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

The question is: How much would they benefit from being able to do that, compared to the benefit Expertise grants?
How many secondary class spells are actually used/viable on Elementalists, Necros?

They benefit a lot actually. The necro healers are very powerful, and so are the mesmer nukers.

HawkofStorms · Apr 06, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuhe Ji

They benefit a lot actually. The necro healers are very powerful, and so are the mesmer nukers.

Fast caster ele are terrible.

Anyways, Kashrlyyk has a very good point. Comparing the usefulness of expertise to other primary attributes...

Soul Reaping = unlimited energy, even with the timer "nerf" that had everybody complaining. Sabway works for a reason people.

Energy storage = useful

Divine favor = already limited to only monk skills (and is the nerf propossed to expertise, so this nerf has precidence).

Of the 10 primary attributes, Expertise is clearly the 3rd most useful (behind energy storage which allows stuff like E/Mos in GvG, and of course Soul reaping in PvE).

Now, wheter it deserves a nerf or not is another story, but you can't deny the fact that it is a powerful attribute.

Kyrein · Apr 06, 2008, 04:46 AM // 04:46

fast caster eles are terrible? my mesmer can easily outdamage an ele, while maintaining enough energy to use the skills often

Kale Ironfist · Apr 06, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrein

fast caster eles are terrible? my mesmer can easily outdamage an ele, while maintaining enough energy to use the skills often

Opportunity cost. You're expending an entire character slot to do half of what another character (assuming MB ele) does slightly more efficiently instead of using your Mesmer.

Kyrein · Apr 06, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

its called a pvp slot

Dr Strangelove · Apr 06, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrein

fast caster eles are terrible? my mesmer can easily outdamage an ele, while maintaining enough energy to use the skills often

That's your problem. Eles completely suck when used solely for damage.

Master Ketsu · Apr 06, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Fast Cast Mesmers are only good for RA where the point is to Mill the other side regardless of any teamwork or lack thereof. Outside of that, they fail for the same reason an ele with no utility fails. FC mesmers use up the slots an ele could be using for utility skill -( like HP, draw, wards, snare, ect. ) to give them emanagment in an attempt to make up for their lack of energy storage.

Kyrein · Apr 06, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

i use one attunement

just like most eles

i don't call completely shredding mobs of people or solo capping any shrine in under 30 seconds in AB "fail"

Deadshot Seven · Apr 06, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Honestly, the only thing I find extremely annoying are the touchers. Thumpers are fine by me. And the Ranger/Paragon combo is fun to run, with or without the actual build being abused in PVP.
I believe it would be better to just make it so expertise no longer effects touch skills, being that the only ranger touch skill is throw dirt.

HawkofStorms · Apr 06, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrein

i use one attunement

just like most eles

i don't call completely shredding mobs of people or solo capping any shrine in under 30 seconds in AB "fail"

Please reread Ketsu's post. He explains it quite well.

You sacrifice utility (condition removal, blocking enchants, etc). And it only works in AB/RA, low tiers of PvP. You will have energy issues in a longer fight. You can't kill people in GvG's/HA (unless with a spike build) in 30 seconds. In a 10-20 miniute long, non-stop fight, you will be in trouble.
High end PvP never sees those builds because they aren't that efficient. And if you are playing a fast cast ele in PvE... just make an ele.